CatGirl Pink ([info]catgirlpink) wrote,
@ 2007-05-23 10:33:00
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Current mood: frustrated, helpless

Some days I can't help thinking about things, and I become overwhelmed by how much I hate this world. I hate the things that are allowed to go on in it. I wish I was a being with the capacity to punish people when they insist on hurting and damaging, and no one can do anything about it. I wish I could help people when no one else will, when no one else cares at all. I wish I could take horrible people's power away and stop them from causing so much pain.

I keep thinking about Zeus' kids. The state took them away based on one person's frivolous and baseless accusation. They have dragged out their little power game unreasonably long already. The kids are suffering, and no one cares.

They will have emotional, perhaps psychological scars from this lengthy period of separation early in their lives. It could take them years to recover from this, if they can fully recover at all. Zeus watches everything they do, from his trained perspective as a psychologist. They display a lot of confusion and perhaps developmental problems. This power game will hurt them for years, but the government does not care. They just want to show that they have power over others, in whatever petty ways they can manage.

The kids are suffering physically. The foster parents they were given to refuse to stop smoking around them, despite the laws that say they can't. The kids kept showing up to visits reeking of cigarette smoke. Their health is in danger, and no one cares. No office gives any regard to the complaints filed by Zeus. They won't lift a finger, law has no meaning.

There is evidence to say that these foster parents are sexually abusing Zeus' son, and neglecting his daughter- not feeding her enough, not taking care of her. Still, the government does not care. Why should they care if the people they chose are highly dangerous to children? Why should they care if the trash they let become foster parents are sexual abusers? All that matters to them is the power game, and how much they can hurt a family if they choose.

The official psychologist has already decided Zeus is no threat to his kids. That would be obvious to anyone who knows him. He talks about his kids all the time, and it is clear that he cares about being a good father. Very few males I have encountered, if any, showed this much interest in fatherhood. I don't know where anyone would get the idea he could have ever been a threat.

The agency that watches the visits are looking at the evidence that the foster parents have been sexually abusing and neglecting the children to build a case. That's good, but it will be of no use. No one else will care. No one will do anything. If lucky, this trash will lose their permissions to foster, and will not be able to abuse any more children. But they will not get thrown in jail for 50 years, or anything else that they deserve for what they've done. The legal system doesn't do shit for anyone, ever. All the legal system will do is harass victims for daring to bother them with their problems.



One thing that always gets me is the tragedy of people who never even know what they've done. I think that people should know what they have done to others. If nothing else, they should know. I never get over how frustrating it is that people will do things that hurt others and never even acknowledge it. Some jerk in traffic nearly causes an accident by the stupidity of their driving, by ignoring a yield sign and cutting across two lanes when you're driving right there, and you almost hit them because of what they've just done, and they never even look. They probably don't even know you're there. They have no idea the danger they put you in, and they don't care.

Someone gets all huffy, or meddlesome, and thinks they know something they have no clue about, so they call a government agency, and bam. Over a year of pain and suffering inflicted on two, innocent children. Given over to sexually abusive and neglectful foster parents who are allowed to get away with it. Two innocent children, confused and isolated, left with trash who treat them poorly, removed from the safety of their home, separated from their protecting father, for a year or more. Suffering. And the person who called has no idea. They probably don't even care. They probably haven't given a thought to it since the week they called, so long ago. They likely don't even know how long this has dragged out, and how long the children have suffered in pain because of them. They don't even know. Would they ever care?

Of all oddities that could have occurred, Zeus and I were talking about my old days at college, and I had mentioned a girl named Decha [[info]dechavu], who I met a few times at some things back then. He said that she was the one who called to get his kids taken away. I still don't even know what to think of that. She was friends with so many good people I knew, it's hard for me to imagine them associating with someone capable of that. I wonder if anyone will ever tell her of the year's worth of horrors that have been visited on these children because of her. I wonder if she'll ever know their pain and suffering. I wonder if she even cares.

But I still feel that never knowing is worse than knowing and not caring. At least people should know what they've done.




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[info]ichijoji_chan
2007-05-23 07:21 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps you should contact Patrick about these things; he studies law a lot.
Punishment does NOT work well to change behavior. Besides being cruel, it is simply ineffective.
Hey, why not give the little munchkins disposable cameras? They can take pictures of their foster parents smoking, take pictures of the meals they are given, and anything else that bugs them.

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[info]catgirlpink
2007-05-23 07:31 pm UTC (link)
I doubt the legal system even gives a damn in the face of photos. Proof? Why do they need proof of something they don't care about? If they don't want to help you or make a case they won't. "Screw you, who cares about the law. How dare you make a fuss over injustice, you interrupted my slacking."

Besides, the kids are too little. Under 3 years and 1.5 years, I believe. They wouldn't be able to take photos. They wouldn't have the focus to take any useful shots, and the guilty adults probably wouldn't even have to worry about taking the cameras away before the kids just dropped them somewhere and forgot all about them.

Who cares if punishment is not an effective behavior changer. People won't change. Not at that age. The important part is that they ought to be locked up where they cannot harm any more children.

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[info]zeussimeoni
2007-05-23 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Law.. is unfortunately meaningless in some cases.

If I had beaten my kids with a chain, I would have been in a much better position. It would have been a criminal offense.. and they would have had to take me to court, and prove my guilt. They would need about a 90% surity in order to take any action.

Not the case with child custody law. They don't need a trial. They can take the kids away on suspicion for two months. After that they need a trial, in which they don't have to prove my guilt... I have to prove my innocence, and even then they only need 51% doubt. Not "beyond a reasonable doubt"... they need "any doubt whatsoever". Even then... not only do they not have the same standards of a criminal proceeding.. and not is the defendant guilty until proven innocent.. but they don't even need proof of wrongdoing. They only need to prove suscpicion of wrongdoing. With suspicion, (and not much).. they can then take the kids away for 15 months. (not counting the original three months of course).

And the kids in all this mess... aren't really even considered. They're a means to an end.. (that end making people feel important), not really much of a consideration. it's unfortunate, but that's how the law is written. Nobody needs to give a shit about the kids. They're not even legally bound to.

Zeus - god of seeing too much

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[info]exaggeration17a
2007-05-24 01:08 am UTC (link)
Did someone say my name? :-)

Most of my knowledge of the legal system comes from my Dad, and one of his favorite quotes comes from a murderer, spoken just before his execution: "the system doesn't work, because the system doesn't want to work." Regretfully, that's pretty much true, as are the sentiments Jen and Zeus have expressed.

The social workers aren't legally obligated to ensure that the highest quality of care is provided to these or any other kids. Whether they work for DHS or the foster care system, they're all public sector employees who get the same pay no matter what they do. Since there's no monetary incentive for them to do the best job possible, more often than not, they don't.

In fact, it comes right back to a money issue if you do want anything done about it: hire a good lawyer. A mercenary, who is trained in the use of legal weapons and knows the legal battleground. Someone who can get the state's attention by threatening them with a gun labeled, "LAWSUIT". Without that training, us common folk are more like people trying to hit the state with a stick. Maybe if we annoy them enough, they'll give us our way... but that's a big maybe sometimes.

There are people who care about their jobs, though. Keep poking people with that stick and you might find one... best of luck.

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[info]zeussimeoni
2007-05-23 08:32 pm UTC (link)
oh, I also wanted to mention complete agreement on the overall theme of the post. And that is... people should know what the hell they've done to people.

I've been reading sandman... and in one section, a man (hob) is mourning over his recent wife's death. Dream comes up to him and asks if he wants revenge on the guy that ran her over and drove off. Hob says that revenge wouldnt' do any good... the man's death would not make the wrong any more right. But the man should at least know the person that he killed. He should know what kind of a person she was, and what he has personally removed from the world. Dream.. being dream... simply made it happen.

Of course, it's not that easy in real life. But I wish it would. I wish the person who called up DHHS on my kids knew about how much damage has been done. (It was probably decha... maybe not. But most likely). The girl who "killed" (so to speak) my wife should know who she was. People should know the wrongs they have committed.

But they don't.. and they never will. People don't see what is happening.. people see what they want to see. The social workers destroying my children see that they're protecting them (from what I'm not sure).. the person who kills another sees his victim as weak and without value. It doesn't matter that it's not the truth. People seem rarely interested in actual truth. People will see whatever they wish to see.. and in many cases, whatever they NEED to see. The social workers dealing with my children would commit suicide if they actually looked at any semblance of reality.

Zeus - god of seeing with eyes unclouded

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[info]catgirlpink
2007-05-23 08:43 pm UTC (link)
If their idea of protecting children is to take them away from a perfectly healthy, loving parent and give them to "trailer trash", sexually abusive smokers, then they should commit suicide. Do the world a favor. Children everywhere would be so much safer.

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[info]ichijoji_chan
2007-05-24 12:27 am UTC (link)
This stuff just doesn't add up.
What's missing from this data?
What were you (Zeus) accused of, and what was the evidence?
And if suspicion is enough to get the kids taken away from you, why isn't it enough to get them taken away from their foster parents?
Also, is there actual evidence of sexual abuse? Can you demand a medical examination of the kids? I really know nothing of this area.
It probably comes down to money, everything does.
My parents were horrible parents, but they had jobs and therefore enough money to keep a roof over our heads and a variety of pasta shapes on our table, and so we were never taken away. Mom would say "Do you want to be taken away?" Or "Do you want DHS to take you away?" We didn't even know what DHS was, but it kept us quiet.

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[info]zeussimeoni
2007-05-24 02:28 pm UTC (link)
1). What was I accused of? It depends on what day you're talking about. Firstly, I was accused of frightening a friend of mine. He had betrayed me and almost everyone I knew. Aaron had decided that having an affair with my mentally unstable wife was more important than my friendship of several years, or the friendship of anyone that I knew. So I went over to talk to him about it. Nothing dangerous happened fortunately, but he got scared so DHHS was called as revenge (most likely he didn't like actually being held accountable for his actions). Whether it was him, or decha, I have no idea. Doesn't really matter. It was a revenge call, and it had nothing to do with the children.

Then when the initial investigation was complete, I was accused of totally different, unconnected things. My wife has had a severe psychotic break, and entered a dissassociative fugue state. Essentially, she's altered her personality 180 degrees, and formulated new memories so that she thinks things were always how she now wants them to be. Her new personality is based on being the opposite of me, and her new fabricated memories have me as some oppressive monstrous authority figure she was always trying to rebel against and only now has found the courage to do so. (it really puts her in a victim/heroine role in her mind) She told the DHHS people that when I put my hand over Khan's mouth to stop him from screaming (he has a minor temper tantrum phase) I would close off his nose too to prevent him from breathing. (which is not what i would do.. I would actually remove my hand from his mouth when he was inhaling so he could get oxygen) Since this is a report of me trying to suffocate Khan, I was labeled as "possibly physically abusive". They never took into account that the person saying these things was mentally unstable and trying to divorce me, therefore having every reason to lie or simply not remember clearly.

Oh... and as a humorous sideline.. they also said that i was emotionally abuseive because I made a "mean daddy face" sometimes when khan did something but I didn't want to punish him physically. Yes... giving children a disapproving look is seen as emotional abuse to the state (and a judge signed off on this).

Next investigation was done by a Psychologist.. although one that is apparantly just a tool of the state unfortunately. Even HE didn't find any reason to suspect any physical or emotional risk to the children. However, being a state tool, he found totally different (and unrelated to the previous two) reasons why I shouldn't be a parent right then. First, he labeled me as narsissistic. (which I'm not - I should be labeled as more napoleonic than anything else) Then, he said that I didn't have the proper education or knowledge base to know what to expect from a child an didn't know what was going on in their lives. He came up with all this after meeting me for about an hour.

Next investigation was done by a Psychologist who DOESN'T typically work for DHHS. I go to 2 hours a week with this guy. He's really a brilliant clinician thankfully enough. Anyway, he disagrees with every asssessment so far. He feels I'm not an undue physical or emotional risk to the children. He also feels that I'm not narsissistic,and that I DO have more than enough education and knowledge base on the kids, and really seem to have a good handle on what they need an what is going on with them. He states there is no reason I can't have the kids back. The state is kind of ignoring this guy, even though he's the most qualified person so far to make any sort of statement.


Well, I'll answer the next (shorter) part in another post, so this one won't be deleted (as well) by livejournal for being too long.

Zeus - god of Khan

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[info]zeussimeoni
2007-05-24 02:45 pm UTC (link)
2) if the evidence is good enough for me, why not for removing them from the foster parents?

GOOD question! Well, what may surprize you is that the foster parents are PART of DHHS! Sometimes outside agencies deal with the foster parents... although not in this case. They're totally managed by DHHS. You may look at them as employees of DHHS. Why would they accuse THEMSELVES of anything? Why would they even investigate?

Besides.... the role that DHHS takes is to remove children. They may have illusions that they're doing it for whatever reason... but that's moot. The fact is they have no power, no ability to change anything unless they can remove children. And without foster parents, they can't remove children. So without foster parents, they have no power whatsoever. They depend on these people. Why rock the boat? Simply because a couple of children may drown? Acceptable losses to them. They haven't considered the kids so far, why should they start now?

3) Evidence of sexual abuse. Well, you see, this one is tricky because DHHS has refused to investigate. You see, a few months ago my son Khan went to the bathroom in a visit, and when I went to wipe his butt I found fresh blood in his stool and a drop of blood coming out of his anus. Now.. for those who dont' know.. the color of the blood means a lot. Dark red could mean it's an old wound. Or that the wound was well inside the colon. Red blood means the cut is fresh... and just inside the rectum. This was blood red.. (watered down a bit from diarreah). So fresh anus wound. Khan was sent to the hospital, I was not allowed to go there, or even to talk to the doctors to tell him of khan's medical history. DHHS has refused to investigate the case any further. At this point, I see Khan for 6 hours a week, and in that time he goes poop a couple times. He's constipated a lot. It appears he's holding it (when he can) until my visit. Why? One possibility is that he has good memories of potty training and so he wants his dad to take him to the bathroom. Another possibility is that he doesn't want OTHER People to ever take him to the bathroom. This also isn't being investigated.

Can I demand a medical examination of the kids? Nope. I can demand nothing. There is nothing whatsoever that I can do to protect my children from DHHS. They answer to no one. They have rules the foster parents are supposed to follow. For example... no smoking within 12 hours of seeing the kids. Yet.. the kids come in all the time with smoke smell... an the foster parents are just saying 'I don't know how it got there'. No one is doing anything. they're breaking their own rules and not caring. How can you fight apathy?


It doesn't come down to money as much as it does power. If this case were handled with any amount of justice.. then the state would have to give up some power. People don't like to do that. Power makes them feel important. Does it matter that the only educated, competent person to examine me has found me to be no threat? Nope. Better to listen to the other people with less credentials and knowledge.

Your last comment is great. DHHS is used as "the boogeyman". "Eat your vegetables or DHHS will come and get you". And they live up to that. Even in my case.. DHHS was called for revenge.. having nothing to do with the kids whatsoever... and they've lived up to their reputation as monsters.

Zeus - god of Kiata

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[info]ichijoji_chan
2007-05-24 04:32 pm UTC (link)
They're cute kids. :)
I agree with Patrick; can you get a lawyer? Ask Pine Tree, they help poor people.
Do you have a job right now? That could be a factor in their choice.
Statistically, 50% of foster kids are returned to their parents.
Covering a kid's mouth is not the best way to deal with a tantrum. In fact, it is best to avoid any sort of physical punishment. Try ignoring the tantrum or placing the kid in time out. What's important is NEVER to reward a tantrum that has already started, ever. Even a small chance of reward greatly encourages behavior. Try to avoid the tantrums in the first place by making sure all needs are met, thirst, hunger, being too hot or cold, tight clothes, etc, can set off tantrums. Reward the kid when he is well behaved.

If not knowing enough about kids were justification for having them taken away, very few people would have kids. But perhaps if you placate their concerns by offering to take a class or something? Do they themselves offer classes? That would make them money, they'd love that.

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[info]zeussimeoni
2007-05-24 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Ah.. you are offering solutions. Not what they're looking for. You're thinking logically... try thinking "witch hunt" instead.

I agree... covering the mouth is not generally the best way to handle a tantrum. It happened to be effective with Khan. Doesn't happen to be with Kiata...she's just of a different temperment. Either way it doesn't constitute abuse so it's kind of moot.. but different methodologies work with different children (thankfully khan never had much of a temper tantrum phase anyway).

They've actually said from the beginning that I should take some classes, and yet they at the same time tell me that no classes exist that I don't already have a superior education already. So... if no classes exist that even cover my CURRENT level of education, why exactly do I need more knowledge?

I'm currently taking parenting classes. I know more about this stuff than the teacher. They had to arrange one on one instruction so I wouldn't be held back by other people in a class. She talks about a topic.. and we just start rambling as I talk about various developmental theroies and how they relate to the topic at hand and what I've observed with my children...

But this isn't what DHHS wants. They simply want to have some power for a while. My actions seem rather meaningless to them.


Oh, and the classes dont' make them money. They pay for the counciling and for the parenting class. They just don't seem to listen to what the instructors say or what their opinions are of me... although it IS odd that they expect me to listen to them. (actually I enjoy the class, since it's basically just a conversation about developmental theory and I enjoy the subject. I'm not really learning anything, but it's at least interesting)

Zeus - god of reality

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[info]ichijoji_chan
2007-05-25 02:23 am UTC (link)
The fact that they pay for it indicates it probably DOES make them money.
When I briefly had a caseworker from NOE, they did everything in their power to force me into their NOE day program of classes. Weather the classes could help me or teach me anything was of no importance to them. The classes were not even relevant to me- most of the people in them had substance abuse problems, which were never an issue to me, and many had serious metal handicaps. My problems, anxiety and depression were actually exacerbated by the small, stuffy, crowded classes, filled with new and strangely acting people, many of whom had a poor concept of personal space, filthy surfaces to trigger my ocd, and over powering strong smells. Err, sorry, getting off track. My point was they were doing this to everyone they could get their hands on, by, for example, making taking their classes a requerment for anyone sheltered in their houses, and making it difficult for their charges to find other housing or other wise escape the classes.
Why? Because, the classes make them money.
Everything they do with every person earns them some money, straight from your taxes. Somethings have a higher profit margin than others. It pays to keep people in the system, not to help them get out.
Fortuneately, my next caseworker at Acadia had different priorities, and after I was able to switch other she met my needs quickly and suitably, finding me housing I could afford, and getting me into programs that were actually helpful for my needs.
Anyway, yeah, find out what things make them the most profit for the effort.

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[info]catgirlpink
2007-05-25 08:49 pm UTC (link)
"It pays to keep people in the system, not to help them get out."

Too true. What a hellish system we have here.
I wonder how many people know that they're lying by saying they're helping anyone, and how many people are stupid enough to believe they actually are helping.

Stupid people who hurt you because they think it's helping are dangerous.
Too bad we're stuck with them. *sigh*

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[info]ichijoji_chan
2007-05-26 05:12 pm UTC (link)
Is this just a bitch fest, or are you actually interested in trying to find solutions and get your kid's back?
I advise you to take the classes, sit and listen like everyone else and do as DHS wants you to. If they aren't going to listen to the experts you hirer, than you have to meet the approval of the ones that they hirer. Figure out what they want to hear and see and give them that.
You claim to be an expert on kids, but what proof do you have of that? A degree? Frankly, I'm shocked anyone could earn a degree in any child or behavior related field and still think that physically covering a child's mouth is the best way to to deal with tantrum behavior.

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[info]catgirlpink
2007-05-30 02:27 pm UTC (link)
Hm? That was me. And yes, I was bitching.

It does not matter what is done, DHS does not care. They only do whatever they can think of to block every effort, no matter how illogical. Everything with them is the equivalent of "Because I said so." [They could make a Star Trek android explode..]

Zeus has agreed to and done everything they've asked, but they just don't care. He sits in parenting classes, he goes to a psychologist. The psychologist has called him no threat, but DHS won't listen. Even agreeing to all their terms isn't good enough for them. They have set it up so there's no way to win.

There's nothing more for him to do, he does what they ask.


Here's a new example of their completely illogical bullshit:

Zeus requested a video camera be present at his visits. They would not give him one for several months. They didn't want him to have it. Because it would prove he was good with the kids? It would show the condition the kids were in from their poor foster care?

Finally, they gave in, after months, and let him have a video camera going at each visit.

Now, it's all nice and summery out, and Zeus wants to take the kids outside. DHS has decided now that he can no longer take the kids outside, because there's no video camera out there, and the one they use has no batteries. (It probably could have batteries if they wanted to supply any.)

So, first they wouldn't give him a camera at all, didn't want one, and now they won't let him take the kids outdoors because there's no camera there.

How's that for logic?
Makes your head want to explode, doesn't it?

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[info]catgirlpink
2007-05-30 02:29 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and yeah, the experts are all hired by DHS. None of them are hired by Zeus. DHS won't even listen to the guy they have to pay, because he's not saying what they want him to.

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[info]soggyfroggy
2007-05-28 12:30 am UTC (link)
i'd like to speak on behalf of social workers, since that is my major and I have interned at DHS, so I have some experience with the system.

I know it can suck, and some people are called on for revenge. You have beautiful children and if you are truthful in all you say, I hope they can come back to their dad.

DHS is not out to get you, I swear. They do some great work, and have improved over the years. Foster parents are badly needed, so sometimes not the best people can slip through. It has happened, and it will always happen, they do not want your children to be abused, they most likely do not have the resources and power to change it right now (the social workers who remove your children, who come on your visits ect answer to their supervisors, who are the ones who make all the decisions.) so don't be mad at your worker. They really do want to help.

How are they supposed to know who is right or wrong? Its your word against someone elses. So, they need to investigate and work out all this mess, which sadly does take time. The system has really improved and children is there priority,not money (they make shit, and it has nothing to do with how many kids they removed, or how many cases they cary). Oh, and child removal is rare, it happens only like once every two months, which some people might think is not so often as it is portrayed. Also, there are many steps and people to go threw before they can remove a child, it is not something they want to do.


Ok, anything else I say will be repetitive, and if your not involved with the bangor DHS then I really can't speak on their behalf. I have heard horror stories of other DHS's, but, Bangor does good work. Of course everyone messes up sometime but you don't have your children back yet because they first need to sort out the mess and make surethey will be safe.

good luck

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[info]zeussimeoni
2007-05-30 01:46 pm UTC (link)
The problem I have with the bangor DHHS.. (which I have heard from multiple sources is the worst in the state as far as "yank your kids away with little reason") is that at no point are the kids any concern to the workers in any regard. They really aren't.

Take what's going on now. DHHS is using stall tactics because I've pretty much agreed to what they've reccomended from day one. (hell, I suggested a few things like counseling and parenting classes that they refused to actually set up until they were forced to do so.. even though it's apparantly ALWAYS done) Stalling of course.. simply keeps the kids penned up in a minimum security detention facility. It does NOTHING else. Now my father is trying to get custody of the kids... and it should be a brainless operation. Not only are the kids foundering in the foster home (attachment problems... possible issues of severe neglect and sexual abuse, emotional abuse).. but my father is fit... newly retired (tons of time for the kids), an ex teacher (degrees in psychology and a masters in education)... really a picture perfect cantidate for this sort of thing - and yet DHHS is fighting it on principal alone (so they don't give up some of their control over the situation).. and completely ignoring the fact that the kids would be better off. They shouldn't give a rat's ass about who is in control. They should consider where the kids are better off.

But they don't. It's not even a priority for them.


Keep in mind.. I can't speak for the caseworkers that I haven't dealt with. For all I know the only peice of crap caseworkers are the ones I've dealt with and all the rest are golden. I just really doubt it. And I certainly can't speak for the people who don't work in child services. I would actually suspect that each branch works a bit differently. Each has different strengths.. and each has different lies they tell themselves so that they can sleep at night. People in child services probably lie to them selves and say that they're not REALLY hurting kids just so they have something to do. And people who dish out welfare tell themselves that they're not REALLY just giving lazy people carte blanche to never contribute to society - people who dish out foodstamps tell themselves that they're not REALLY giving out so much in money that the people can't just sell off their foodstamps at the end of the month for drug money.....


Seriously michelle... I really hope that you're one of the good ones. I know they're out there, and I think you can be one of them. They're not common.. and I'm sure they try "change from the inside" instead of "just doing my job, ma'am". I'm sure the good workers DO get bothered by the stuff they're forced to do, and they don't lie to themselves about it so they can sleep easier at night. They use the corruption instead as a personal motivator to at least do THEIR job better than other people are doing. Those people are rare. Their jobs are harder. They DON'T sleep better at night. But years later... when they reflect back upon their lives, they have the opportunity to actually see what they have done and smile. Sometimes the best road is the toughest.. I wish that for you, because you can succeed in it, and quite frankly.. we don't need more people... in ANY jobs.. who keep on insisting on taking the easy path at the expense of everyone else.

Zeus - god of philosophizing

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